i realize there are some parallel threads running now that pertain to this issue and i've reviewed the older threads as best i could. but this is baffling me.

i'm using for my refs the appropriate sections on neck relief and actions on frets.com and bryan kimsey's site. and i'm no sort of mechanic or carpenter type, so my figures could be way off base.

the problem is that i bought a used '04 0002h collings last week. well that's not the problem! [g]. the main reason for the purchase was that i'd heard that a 12-fret model was easier to play. i traded in two taylors ('04 414ce/'02 710 ltd) on this collings and i had installed new saddles on both the taylors and sanded them down to where they were approx 5/64" on the low 'e' at the 12th fret. both these taylors played very easy. one had light strings and the other medium ones. the one with medium strings played easier, but it had a thicker 'v' neck also.

when trying out the 0002h at the shop (hill country guitars) it felt harder to play than the taylors, but i put most of this down to the 1-13/16 width as opposed to the 1-3/4 i was used to. but i had kevin tweak the truss rod a hair to improve the action before i left.

now that i've had a few days to play it, i find it's still much harder on my fingers than any of the guitars i've played over the last few months. i've had a nearly 30 year layoff, so my fingers are extremely sensitive to how hard i have to press down to chord. that's why ease of play is my primary concern right now.

anyway, i've gone over and over the measurements on both these websites and the 0002h seems setup absolutely perfectly using their benchmarks:

1) action on the low 'e' at the 12th fret is 5/64".

2) neck relief with capo on 1st fret and holding down the 12th fret and measuring at the 7th fret is approximately .008-.012 using feeler gauges. it is certainly less than .016, but i'm not very comfortable using these feeler gauges.

3) height at the nut seems just fine using the technique of holding down the 2nd fret and making sure the string at the low 'e' is just clearing the fret. i didn't measure it, but i can just barely tap the string over the fret and can hear it click.

strings are brand new d'addario j16's. sighting down the neck it seems to be arrow-straight with no arc either up or down.

anyway, i find my fingers get too tired to continue in less than half the time compared to playing the taylors. i am getting ?buzzing? ?muting? when playing above the 5th fret.

any suggestions gratefully welcomed. this is my first collins, so i have no concept or baseline regarding the 'stiffness' i see quoted on so many threads. i wouldn't know how to evaluate that.

thanks,

/guy

Sounds like the problem is not with your setup, although you might take it back into Hill Country just one more time before you do anything drastic (like sell it!).

Assuming the setup is OK, sounds like it's an issue of the neck design itself. As you noted, the neck on the Collings is wider than you have been accustomed to, and this can make a huge difference. There's also the issue of the neck profile, which I suspect is not quite as slender as what you had on the Taylors. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you can do about either of these issues (maybe see about adjusting the string spacing with a new saddle and/or nut?).

This could also be a matter of getting used to a new body size and shape, which can change the angle of your arm/wrist/hand. Experiment with some alternative playing positions, like a classical approach (left foot slight raised & guitar on left thigh).

Finally, you might even try some other brands or types of strings. Some people find John Pearse "slinkier" than D'addarios, although other people will tell you just the opposite. Newtone strings apparently tune to lower tension, and that should make them easier to play (I've never tried them). You could also try a switch to 80/20s, which some people find less stiff than Phosphors. This will change your sound from the PBs, but maybe you'll like that change.

Guy,... i think that is your name...

When you measure your action at the 12th fret, do you measure to the fretboard or the fret? The proper measurement is the to the fretboard since fret heights vary depending on the frets used and whether they've been taken down. If it is to the fretboard, it sounds like the action is as low as it should go for the low "E". You should also take a measurement on the high "E".

What are the string gauges on J16's? It would help to know that without having to look it up. I would stay with "Lights" which usually go from .053 to .012. If you can't get a guitar to play comfortable with those gauges, it's time to shop for a different guitar or get a neck reset.

As far as "stiffness" with Collings I want to go on record and state that I don't see that as an issue with Collings guitars. Once a guitar is set up properly, there is no magical "hex" that makes one guitar play harder than the other.

All that being said, I also have a problem with difficult action and have my guitars setup periodically for comfort. It's worth the bucks to have someone who really knows Collings guitars to do the setup. I don't know Kevin at Hill Country, but if he does setups... I'd tell him what you want and let him give it another try. Then let us know if that worked.

I bought my OM-2H new (Nov 2003) from a dealer and it has not been in the shop once for a set up. I just change strings and it seems to play perfectly for my needs. It has 1 11/16" nut width and 25" scale. Right now, that is what I like to play. I have a 1 3/4" nut width guitar (not a Collings) and find it more difficult to play just because of that and it has a 25.4" scale. I can only imagine how difficult a 25.5" scale and the 1 13/16" nut width would make on the overall playability. So, I sympathize with your issue, it is similar to mine... I need a guitar to play as low as possible with "light" gauge strings or else I'm sunk... but I wont' put up with buzzing so it is not so low to cause buzzing on frets.

My next guitar will by a 000-12 deep bodied (4 1/2"), cutaway and I will go for a short scale and 1 11/16" nut width. If you get a chance, play a short scale Collings guitar and see what I mean about being easier to play.

tks for the replies and suggestions so far.

the measurement is from the top of the 12th-fret (not the board) to the bottom of the low 'e' string. the j16's are: 12, 16, 24, 32, 42, 53.

before i purchased, i tried to come to some conclusions as to whether the 12-fret style or a short scale would make the most difference in ease of play. i never did get a definitive answer, so assumed that the 12-fret style was the major factor. but the more i read, the more i'm coming to see most people consider the scale more of a factor.

perhaps the wider neck is forcing my fingers further apart and it takes more effort to hold the individual frets down since the fingers are spread out further--i'm only guessing.

for now i think i will try some different strings and work on technique as musicologydoc advised. it's way too early to write this off as a failed experiment with only a few days playing on it!

ps: does collings make a 12-fret, 1-3/4" slothead short scale in _any_ body size as standard production?

thanks,

/guy

This message has been edited. Last edited by: golftango,

Guy,

Your string gauges sound fine... you don't want to go any lighter or you will lose tone big time. If you do a little research on short scale instruments, you will find that they are easier to play because the string tension is lower. They are great for fingerstyle blues because string bends are a heck of a lot easier. I would suggest trying to play one somewhere, maybe even a Martin since they do sell their 24.9" scale as standard on 000's I believe.

And YES... a wider neck at the nut will increase the stress on the fingers and hand. I've noticed this with just 1/16" increase in width. If you have super strong hands, it won't be an issue... but I don't have the herculean grip needed to play the wider necks, thus I stick with the 1 11/16" if possible. You have to look at the bottom line and say, YES the wider necks and the longer scales make a better sounding guitar, but if you can't play it very long.. what's the use? I'd rather spend an extra hour practicing and getting better. You also have to remember that the more you play, the stronger your hands will get. On some days I feel very strong and the short scaled guitars are too easy... so I just pick up the SJ which has a 25.5" scale and sounds every bit as good as my OM's. I look at guitars as tools or "instruments" as they're called which I use to perform a task. I always gravitate toward the instrument that I feel will do the job. And I don't always go by what other people say is good for me, I like to make up my own mind ;-)

p.s. somewhere here probably knows more about what Collings will do as far as custom scales, slot heads, etc. I think they will do it. I know a short scale is $100 upcharge, I don't know whether they will do one on any body size.

Guy:
there are two other factors related to string height that contribute to a sense of ease in fretting notes. First is string tension, which is a function of (a) scale length (b) string mass and/or material and, though it's controversial, (c) head angle and saddle back angle (the angle behind the saddle down to the holes). A & B are obvious and have been mentioned already, but C less so. My opinion is that the strings stretch or pull very slightly across both the saddle or the nut when we bend a note or fret a higher note. It must--I don't think that that wire is actually stretching, then returning to shape only on one side (the fretboard side) of the two contact points. And since these two break angles seem to affect a guitar's attack and tone somewhat, its logical to conclude that they probably affect the sense of feel in playing (albeit very slightly). Electric guitarists who do a lot of string bending are well aware of the effects of a locking string system.
Secondly, fret height can definitely have an effect on your perceived sense of comfort. Very low frets cause your finger pads to have to mash harder into the wood to avoid buzzing, but also produce less string "bite" into the fingertip. High frets will cause deeper bite and finger tenderness more easily, at least until you get used to a lighter touch.
Anyway, sorry to sound a little overly pedantic. I hope this contributes a little to a solution as you try to get your guitar to match up to what you were hoping for.

no, not pedantic at all. although by the time you get to 'break angles' and such my eyes fog up. i did read every word i could find on the subject on frets.com and bryan's page. bryan seemed to come to the conclusion that collings had the saddle angles more right than most, but i think he still did some tweaks on his (low 'e' if i remember right).

i emailed kevin at hill country guitars where i purchased the guitar and he, knowing i was just starting back up after a nearly 30-year layoff, suggested dropping down to some custom light or even extra light strings until i build my hand strength back up. i've got a fossil walrus saddle and pins coming in next week and i'll switch to the extra lights then and if that works, work my way up to the custom lights and then, hopefully back to lights.

i just refuse to believe that a guitar that is obviously designed with such meticulous detail (let alone being the prettiest and best sounding i've ever owned) is so hard on my fingers. i feel the problem lies with me or perhaps just a slight setup tweak that i don't know enough to spot and correct. i realize how hard it is to troubleshoot remotely--that's what i do in my day job, but not for guitars, obviously! [g]

again, thanks to all who have offered suggestions. i'm going to read the other thread someone started on the same sort of issue to see if i missed anything there.

/guy

I would try tightening the truss rod to straighten the neck just a smidge more before I went to lighter strings. Probably no more than another 1/8 turn. I've been amazed several times (most recently with my new Huss & Dalton 00) how big a difference in feel a little flatter neck can make. I've been through this on my Collings too and each time one was feeling a little stiff on the action a little flattening of the neck made all the difference. My OM3 and D2HA both play like butter with light gauge strings.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen White:
I would try tightening the truss rod to straighten the neck just a smidge more before I went to lighter strings. Probably no more than another 1/8 turn. I've been amazed several times (most recently with my new Huss & Dalton 00) how big a difference in feel a little flatter neck can make. I've been through this on my Collings too and each time one was feeling a little stiff on the action a little flattening of the neck made all the difference. My OM3 and D2HA both play like butter with light gauge strings.

---

hi allen. the last thing kevin did before i left his shop was to tweak the truss rod. i'm not sure which direction he went (i think ccw), but it was just a 'nudge'.

as far as i can tell the neck is just dead straight throughout the whole length. in other words, i don't see any 'bow' either towards or away from the strings. but i'm entirely willing to try it--which direction do you suggest i turn?

i've got a fwi saddle coming next week (i also ordered a bone one from collings which should have already arrived but hasn't) so i'll have a couple of these to experiment on. my action at the 12th fret is currently 5/64" and that's the lowest i've ever dared to go on the guitars i've adjusted myself. so i was wondering if i might take one of the saddles down to 4/64" and try that.

and i very rarely play above the 5th-7th fret, but i tried that the other day and it's about 4 times as hard to play up there than it is lower down. i had to press down with all my might to keep from getting buzzes and deadening.

but the more i read, the more i'm suspecting that i'm just having trouble adapting to the wider neck coupled with the fact i haven't played in so long i have no hand/finger strength.

(addinfo) i just found the post i was looking for where bryan gives the measurements on his collings:

quote:

---

IMHE, the two most critical things to a "buttery" feel are

1) little neck relief. I personally run about .004-.006" on my Collings CW, measured at the 7th fret with the 1st and 14th held down. I can instantly feel it if a guitar has .010" or more.

2) a good 1st fret action (as adjusted by the nut). You'd be surprised how low you get the nut w/out buzzing.

3) the actual 12th fret action is 3rd in line.

My Collings is the easiest playing of all my guitars. I have the relief set at .004"-.006" (varies w/ weather), the nut at .022, .020, .018, .018, .018, .016" E to e, and the 12th fret at .105-.085" E to e. People nearly always comment on how smooth playing it is.

---

after reading the above i re-measured and this time threw in the only other guitar i have, a zager (yes, from the ‘string science’ folks, i know, i know!). i did my best to sight down the necks and as far as i could tell, both were as straight as a straigtedge. here’s the results:

note: i was unable to measure at the nut, but i used the casual test from frets.com of holding down the 2nd fret and making sure there was a tiny bit of clearance at the 1st fret. i tapped on the string on top of the 1st fret and could hear a faint ‘tap’. the zager had less clearance than the collings, but not sure how much less.

for the zager, i capo’d at the 1st fret, held down the 14th fret and measured the neck relief at the 7th fret.

for the 0002h i held down the 12th fret and measured at the 6th fret.

the saddle measurements are at the 14th and 12th fret respectively at the low ‘e’ string measured from the top of the fretwire to the bottom of the string:

guitar relief saddle
zager <.006 4/64”
0002h <.006 5/64”

these figures, leaving aside me not being able to measure at the 1st fret, seem to parallel bryan’s figures.

btw, since all this seems to keep pointing towards the guitar being set up perfectly, i'm entirely willing to entertain the possibility that i'm just a whinging wimp! [g]

/guy

This message has been edited. Last edited by: golftango,

Sounds like the neck relief is about right then. Oh well, give the extra lights a try and see how that works out I suppose.

Collings does an excellent job of setup at the nut so I doubt your problem is there. If anything they probably err on the low side at the nut.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen White:
Sounds like the neck relief is about right then. Oh well, give the extra lights a try and see how that works out I suppose.

Collings does an excellent job of setup at the nut so I doubt your problem is there. If anything they probably err on the low side at the nut.

---

i think you're right about the nut as you can see from the new measurements below. i'm really not going to go on forever on this topic, but being bored i decided to check and compare the string height at the 1st fret on both the zager and the 0002h. the result surprised me and i can't explain the difference.

using feeler guages i did my best to get the distance between the top of the fretwire at the 1st fret and the bottom of the low 'e' string. i'll repeat my chart i posted earlier and i'm throwing in bryan k's figures for comparison:

guitar nut relief saddle
zager .032 <.006 4/64”
0002h .010 <.006 5/64”
bryank .016 <.006 5.5/64" [whatever .085 converts to, btwn 5&6/64)

in spite of all the barbs thrown at zager over his 'string science' it really is a very well set up guitar for ease of playing. bryan said (at the time) that the collings was the 'easiest playing of all my guitars'. and mine seems to be set up a little lower than his.

so the question remains as to why i find it hard to play. there have been some good theories posted towards the answer. and i'm tending towards the theory that i've just not got the hours on this guitar--which is radically different in style (12fret, wide neck) than anything i've owned before--and that i'm basically starting from scratch, not having played in 25-30 years.

as i was doing the measurements tonight i again compared playing the same stuff on both the zager and the 0002h. i can already tell it is bothering me to play on the narrower 11/16" neck of the zager indicating i'm getting more used to the 13/16" neck on the collings.

it still seems to take more finger pressure to fret the chords on the collings, but the zager does have ultra-light strings mounted.

oh well, way too long already. i really appreciate everyone who chimed in with help and suggestions. i'll report back in a few weeks as to whether this situation has improved.

thanks,

/guy

ps: my apologies for all the inadvertant replies that got posted. i've tried to delete all of them. on my mac at home the tooltip labels don't work and i was clicking the 'reply' icon instead of the 'edit'.

could've had something to do with me going over the weekend beer quota too! [g]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: golftango,

Guy-
I too switched from a Taylor to Collings, in my case a D2H with a 1 11/16" neck and wasted a fair amount of time and money messing with saddle height only to achieve less than perfect results. (Collings really does do a great job with the factory setup)

I found out from Cotten music that some older Taylor Dreads had a neck width of 1 3/4", and what I was feeling might be related to the change.

I later bought a D1A with a 1 3/4 neck, left the "Factory setup" alone and strung it up w/GHS true mediums. The GHS true mediums have a very even tension accross all of the strings and have a lower tension overall than most "Light" sets made by other companys.

For me the result was a perfect setup and great sound. I also play a Fender (James Burton Artist Series) Telecaster and find the transition back and forth between guitars easier. For comfort and speed I would rather play my D1A any day than the Fender.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Paul Goodman,