I posted this on another forum and didn't get a response. I thought I'd ask you all.

I generally play with just guitar and vocals. I would like to run both through the same sound source with two speaker cabinets. I've never been happy with the sound of vocals through an acoustic guitar amplifier and lately haven't been all that thrilled with the sound of my guitar through an acoustic amp. I play a Collings OM with an I-Beam and had an AER Domino, which was excellent for some acoustics, but not that great with my current set up. I've since sold the Domino.

Are acoustic amps supposed to be tuned to the requirements of an acoustic, or will a good little P.A. do the job. I'm attracted to something like the Fender Passport, but don't know if it will work. Your expertise is appreciated.

I think if you sold an AER, you'll never be satisfied with a Fender Passport. I chose Schertler amps over the AER because I couldn't control the mids enough with AER, and the Shertler worked great with my K&K. We use two Schertler Davids for small gigs sometimes (even over some available house sound systems) for two voices, two guitars, and have never been disappointed with the sound...and we're fairly picky.

Good luck, I'll be curious what you come up with.

Over the years, I've also tried using acoustic guitar amps for smaller gigs, AER, SWR, Fishman and have never been satisfied with the sound. Almost exclusively play through house PA's now, but if I were to do a gig and they had no sound system, I'd bring my Mackie powered mixer and EV speakers...to my ears, significantly better sound than the aforementioned acoustic amps, especially for vocals.

dave

Hi Rotten. What did you not like about the AER? Were you getting feedback? I've played an iBeam equipped guitar though my AER Compact 60 and it sounded wonderful. Are you running it through a decent direct box, like a Baggs Para DI? AER are some of the best acoustic amps out there, and I'm curious why it didn't work for you.

I agree with the comment on the fender passport.

I use my AER 60 for small or quiet gigs of up to 75 or 100 people. For loud or larger venues I'll take my Yamaha EMX640 with two 12" mains and a monitor. Always sounds great.

Any good quality PA with at least 12" woofers in the main speakers should do fine for acoustic guitar. 10" speakers tend to sound weak in the bass, in my opinion. Acoustic amps can get away with smaller speakers, but I'm not sure how. Some kind of elf magic, I think.

Hope this helps,
David

Thanks for the responses. I sold it in part because I wasn't satisfied with the sound so I wasn't using it and I also needed the cash. I had a Takamine nylon string with an on-board EQ and the AER sounded great. I had a Lowden with a passive K&K and even with a K&K preamp it was only OK. Now, I use the Collings and with an active I-Beam, it was overly mid-heavy. The richness of the guitar did not come through.

Maybe it's my frustration with amplifying an acoustic that it seems to lose the quality of a great guitar? Maybe I should have experimented more with different pickup systems.

The compromise in my head it to create a spatially bigger sound by going through a stereo P.A. Maybe the Schertler is a better match; I'll give it a try.

I saw Pete Huttlinger plug his OM with a Fishman into an SWR, which was at the music store. It sounded great. Perhaps I need a mic in there somewhere.

Here is my experience:

I have used a bigger PA (Mackie 3 way powered speakers which I still have) with the mackie onyz mixer, I have used the AER domino and mobile, which have worked well for smaller venues and I still have both, but what I use, regardless of size of venue now, is the Bose PAS system with double bass modules. I have the K&K mini and the preamp in my guitars and while it is certainly not quite up to the sound quality of my Neumann KM184 mic, it simplifies the live performing situation. I actually have the vintage jack installed with the K&K in two varnish dreads and one laquer dread.

I read a recommendation from this forum to turn the bose volume way down and the K&K preamp up to improve the tone and I do think it makes an improvement.

If you haven't tried the bose system, I encourage you to give it a go. It is fantastic, in my opinion.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to email me at dale@daleinskeep.com


Kia Manuia,

Dale

www.daleinskeep.com

Thanks. I will check it out; looks like a sizeable investment. Also, I really enjoyed your website. Great music and great sounds.

I would definitely invest in a PA, particularly if you plan on playing out frequently or plan on moving up to noisier venues/ coffeehouses. They offer more options: you can mic, use the picup, combination of both, etc. and you have more centralized control over vocals/ instrument mix in mains (and if you eventually need them) monitors. I'd also avoid the Fenders--they're OK, but won't give you what you're after in terms of sound. The limited wattage of the Passport makes itself felt pretty quickly if you're trying to play in a coffeehouse with 30 or 40 caffinated folks.

I've used my Yamaha PA & speakers for 10 years now and they have never let me down (and the system sounds great). You can get a new Yamaha EMX powered mixer for between $370 (200 watts per side) and $570 (500 watts per side). Better to have more power than you need and not use it, because the more you crank it, the more distortion will creep in--that's part of the Passport's problem.

If those sorts of prices are a problem, I think that Yamaha now has some new, smaller powered mixers along the lines of the Passport. While the issues of cranking/ distortion would apply, I reckon that the base sound (and the bass sound!) would be a great improvement on the Passport.

I went through the same angst recently and ended up getting an extremely versatile amp. I bought a Genz Benz Shen Pro and couldn't be happier. It's not a replacement for a PA in a medium sized room, but it has 200 solid watts (I think a lot of acoustic amps are grossly underpowered) and does a stellar job on acoustics (really likes my K&K's), resos, keyboard (digital piano) and vocals. With a V-Stack Tweedy, I'm even able to pul out some very useable electric guitar tones that could certainly get through a gig if my tube amp died. For anything larger than a coffee house, it serves as a powered monitor. Does an awful lot for a one hand carry piece.

If you're looking to capture the pure tone of the acoustic instruments, the Bose PAS deserves a serious look, as DailyAcousticMusic mentions. We use one system with single bass, microphones only (no pickups) for guitar, banjo, and voice. No metallic/electic sounds, boomy vocals, muddy blend, etc. You want to be able to hear the difference between D'Addario and JPs through the sound system? -- then check out the Bose.

Some people don't like the Bose -- it doesn't sound like a "sound system."

Alex

quote:

Originally posted by Rotten:
I posted this on another forum and didn't get a response. I thought I'd ask you all.

I generally play with just guitar and vocals. I would like to run both through the same sound source with two speaker cabinets. I've never been happy with the sound of vocals through an acoustic guitar amplifier and lately haven't been all that thrilled with the sound of my guitar through an acoustic amp. I play a Collings OM with an I-Beam and had an AER Domino, which was excellent for some acoustics, but not that great with my current set up. I've since sold the Domino.

Are acoustic amps supposed to be tuned to the requirements of an acoustic, or will a good little P.A. do the job. I'm attracted to something like the Fender Passport, but don't know if it will work. Your expertise is appreciated.

Good advice so far. You may want to rethink your pickup choice. That's not to say that an I-Beam is the wrong choice, but it may be in your situation. The pickup(s)/mic(s) you use are part of the whole, and they can enhance or limit the signal chain. Also, they often affect how your acoustic amp or PA will perform.

As to amp vs. PA, the PA has one major advantage - soundstage. Now, you can get an acoustic amp with a second powered speaker extension (e.g., Genz-Benz, Ultrasound, AER all offer this), and you can place the two to get a PA-like soundstage.

If you want the same quality, overall, expect to spend more for a PA over an acoustic amp. Cheap PAs are available, but they generally sound cheap.

I have to say that I had an I-Beam for a few years before going to K&K's but now I wouldn't go back. Really quite a difference.

The PA speakers that are as light and portable as my amp just don't do it for me in terms of audio quality. Using the acoustic amp I can grab and go and slave it into a single powered monitor (very cool), or a full PA depending on the situation. Works extremely well in band settings too. Gets me a lot of use out of a single piece of equipment.