O.K. I'm beginning to get the picture. In order to record I need some pickups, such as the K&K pure western mini pick-ups (professionally installed). And as disussed (and all of the comments are appreciated) you need something like a Fishman Loudbox performer to plug into.

What other things do you need to record. What do you actually record with - the recording device. And do you require external mics or how does it work.

I know next to nothing about this area, but want to get set up to have some fun recording.

Any and all comments are appreciated. Hate to be so damn ignorant, but this is new to me.

All the best,

Stuart

New too, so take this with a grain of salt.

First, you need to decide if you are going to record in a mixer environment or a mixer-less one which can be entirely PC based. See this diagram for the Presonus Firepod for a basic view of a mixer-less environment.


http://www.presonus.com/images/firepoddiagram-big.jpg



The Firepod acts as an interface with your PC. The software serves as the mixer and records everything to the hard drive. I like this setup because it is very simple but still allows for some growth and flexibility. They also make a smaller version of this call the Firebox. Both come with excellent entry level software called Cubase LE.

In a mixer based environment, you are likely going to be recording to some sort of media other than a PC hard drive. They do make stand alone hard disk recorders, but they are very expensive. In simple terms, imagine going from your pickup or mic, through into a mixing board, and out to a tape (ADAT) or hard disk recorder. Don't get too thrown off by all of the effects and pre-amps and such. Just think sourc (pickup or mic), mixer, recording device. Korg, Yamaha, and Roland all make stand alone devices that do it all, and these can be a great place to start.

By the way, you don't need a pickup if you are going to use an external mic. The mic will generally give you a better recorded tone, although the pickup may be better if you are in a noisy environment.

Also see:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/

These guys are mostly electronic musicians, but you can get a sense of where to start from their discussions as most of them are home based, non-professionals.

Hope this helps.

--David

Thanks for the reply David.

That's quite the diagram. I think I'm going to have to read your response a few times to figure out what it is I haven't quite grasped yet.

Disk recorders are expensive, so I won't even go there. I like the idea of plugging the guitar in and not having a mic in my face all of the time. So K&K & Fishman loudbox as stated. I think that means I can make lots of noise. So then on to how one records. You mention you don't need a pick-up if you have an external mic, but does that mean you don't need a mic (to record sound) if you have an internal pick-up. Are you referring to the Western mini pick-ups.

I like the firepod idea. But is that what is recording, or must I get one or two mics plugged into it to actually record the sound which would be coming out of the loudbox (I think) - or do speakers get plugged into the loudbox (yikes - money). I understand the firepod would be connected to the PC (though all my usb ports are in use..mmmm), but what is taking in and recording the sound.

I do want to record and have it sound like..well, just like the unplugged version. Such is my anal personality.

Sorry for being thick. I understand finance, but not how things work.

Stuart

Hey Stuart,
Like you, about three years ago I wanted to learn how to do some recording and, of course, needed the equipment to get started. I did a lot of research and thought I had figured out what I needed. I also researched who I needed to buy this stuff from and got good recommendations about a company called Sweetwater. So, I called them up and had the most amazing experience. Right out of the box, they assigned one person to me as my sales engineer, a guy named Delvin Wolfe. Delvin and I then had an indepth conversation about what I was wanting to do, after which he asked that I give him a couple of hours and then he would call me back with a recommendation. He did, and I have been completely pleased with what he suggested. So much so that when it was time to buy a PA, I leaned heavily on Delvin's advice and once again, I have been completely pleased with his advice again.

So, to make a long story short, give Sweetwater a call, they'll do the same thing for you that they have done for me. I doesn't matter that you are green to what you want to do, they'll help you. I have no financial interest at all, just a very satisfied customer and I think you will be too. (they've got a website to of course: www.sweetwater.com)
Lyn

Stuart,

I get finance too, but had to read a ton of stuff about recording just to figure out what i needed. You're not alone.

The Firepod or Firebox or any of the other PC interfaces are just that, interefaces. They don't record anything, but they do convert your guitar (or voice or whatever) sound into a recordable format that can then be tracked by the inlcuded software. So, you need something to make noise, something to get that noise to your pc, and obviously, a pc to record the noise. Again, one of the stand alone recorders from Yamaha, Roland, etc... will do all of this in one box. Not as flexible, but very easy.

Look at the firepod diagram again and first, remove anything you don't intend to record. If your just looking to record your guitar, one of the smaller interfaces will definitely work for you. Now, imagine an acoustic with a pickup (doesn't matter what kind of pickup) as being just like the electrics in that diagram. With the loudbox you will have three options.

1) Plug the guitar directly into the interface (Firepod). No amp needed.

2) Plug one of the Loudbox's DI outputs into the interface. Two appear to be pre-amp outs (the Loudbox isn't doing anything to your signal) so this is somewhat pointless. The MIX DI is post-am which means the Loudbox would be adding its color to the singal. If you like this, it's a good thing.

3) Plug a mic into the interface and put it in front of the Loudbox. This will allow you to record the tone fo the Loudbox's speaker, if that is appealing to you.

If you plan to purchase the Loudbox to perform out somehwere, go for it. They are getting pretty good reviews from what I've seen. If you just want to record, skip the pickup and amp and invest in a decent mic. You can plug that directly into the interface you settle on and your off and running. It can be that simple. Your 0003-C will sound much better this way, IMHO.

So, one more time for review (this helps me too).

Guitar >> Pickup Device (pickup or mic) >> PC Interface (Firepod, Firebox, M-Audio, etc...) >> PC with tracking software.

That is as basic as you can get. My guess is you'll record no more than 5 songs before you start asking about effects. That's when the can of worms really get's opened up.

Hope this helps. Feel free to email off the forum at raney@uthscsa.edu

--David

Thanks both Lyn and David for your replies. Can't believe how consistently friendly and non-attitude-burdened, everyone on this site seems to be. It's so refreshing after other experiences (I've done a ton of research myself in various areas) and have two or three key hobbies.

I appreciate the sweetwater story and will give them a call, Lyn.

I do understand it now. But I have one key question - which I suppose may be two - though David, you may have answered it.

I can plug the guitar into the amp and record by making lots of noise into the mic. I can plug the guitar directly into the recording device using the pickups installed in the guitar, or I can simply use an external mic and play (non-plugged in) into it. I think that's the story.

David, I think you were suggesting that a simple mic would have the best quality results when recording (external mic plugged into recording device). This is my question. Sound quality is the first priority.

S0.....is a mic, or two mics (was reading two = sterio?) placed in front of the guitar the best route from a sound quality perspective, and how important is it that it's a specific mic. Like is there a mic that really stands out in a crowd that can be recommended, or do they all do the trick more or less.

I realize from one perspective, I'm being a bit lazy. But I've literally spent thousands of hours researching on the internet, and I do find I lack the time, but always want the result.


All the best guys.





Stuart

You got it on the three options with the Loudbox.

In most people's opinion, a good condensor mic will give you much better sound than a pickup in an acoustic guitar. That is, unless what you are looking for is the sound of a plugged in acoustic, which is appealing to some in some forms of music.

But in short, a good condensor mic will give you a much more natural "acoustic" sound. Two mics recorded in stereo will sound even better in most cases.

Small diaphragm condensors are pretty standard for acoustic guitar. In modern mics, the Neumann KM184 seems to be the standard to which most others are compared. Prices are in the $500 range used or $730 new. Too pricey for me. I use and love the Shure KSM 137. I paid $225 used on eBay, but it is in like new condition. Many project studio users really like the Oktava MK012, but I have no experience with them personally. Again, these are all small diaphragm condensers and should give you very good results on your guitar. Other choices here are:

Audio Technica AT4041/4051
AKG C1000S
AKG 451B (Tony Rice's preference)

And a host of others. These are condensor mics. You can move down to dynamic mics and spend $100 for a Shure SM57 and get pretty good results in a home studio. I agree with the sweetwater recommendation. Also check Harmony Central for user reviews. Just be ware that most folks make up their mind about a piece of equipment before they buy it. Few mics in the entry level price range are really 10s.

If you plan to record your voice as well, you may want to look at adding a large diaphragn condensor. Again, the choices are endless, but I would suggest sticking with a trusted name like Shure, AKG, AT. I have yet to use a B.L.U.E microphone that I didn't like, but they can be pricey.

Welcome to the next frontier.

--David

David,

I dug in a bit more on my own as well and called a few places, including Fishman and Sweetwater and got some information that supported what you have now told me. The painful part is that I feel I'd love to be plugged in, but it doesn't really solve the recording issue (loudbox and K&K min not really required for recording). So really, it's likely going to cost around 2K unless I can get some of the equipment used. Didn't realize how quickly it would add up. I could do it, but it would draw attention to my spending habits, which could also delay my next guitar purchase.

So I'll have to decide what to get now and what to wait for. The recording device that was recommended by Sweetwater (thanks again Lyn) had built in mics. And while I am quite aware that the quality would suck, it would allow me to have some fun and I could then by the K&K min, the load box and the recording device, and then I could get some mics (perhaps used) when they became availabie. Meanwhile I need time to improve on the guitar anyway. Played for about 8 hours on weekend. Blast.

There is a new loudbox - 100 watt, rather than the performer (130 watts). Much lighter. But I am told that the performer handles midrange and base - better, for lack of detailed descriptives. Why compromise. But it's also quite significantly lighter. Food for thought. Certainly for what I need it for it would be adequate. But I hate compromises if it impairs sound. After all, that's why I bought the Collings in the first place, right?

Either way - it should be fun.

thanks,

Stuart

quote:

Didn't realize how quickly it would add up. I could do it, but it would draw attention to my spending habits, which could also delay my next guitar purchase.

HA! I can certainly relate to that statement.

Agree that Sweetwater is a valuable source. It is very hard to make a decision on equipment until you decide what it is you want to do. I have to say that I would advise against the K&K or any other pickup for recording purposes. If you have it, it can be a tool, but don't rely on it to be a primary tool for recording. Again, if you are going to play out, it may be required. However, I dumped my guitar with a pickup and play my Collings through my KSM137 in live settings. So, I was able to justify a better mic than I might have otherwise purchase because it serves two purposes. Wouldn't work if I were in drum/electric guitar/screaming lead vocal environment, but I'm usually just accompanying the Mrs. or some other member of the family. The mic works great for me and I like the tone a whole lot better than the old pickup, which BTW, was a dual source Fishman Acoustic Matrix Stereo Blender. Not a lame duck by any measure.

You could spend $2k easy. Heck, I have a friend who spent that much for his monitors. But here is a simple set up and some recent eBay prices:

Killer Guitar: You got that!
Presonus Firebox: $300 New or $220 Used
Recording Software: Included in above
Oktava MK012: $100 Used
Monster Perfromer 500 Cable: $50 New

Now you're somewhere between $370 and $450 and you're off and running. This is simple, and can grow with component upgrades (a new interface works with this mic, new mic works with this interface), or additions.

I agree that your best recordings will come from good playing, but hearing yourself is a powerful education tool, and knowing that you are going to record something can be a real motivator.

So, you can spend $2k without even trying, but you can get started for much, much less than that.

Either way, have fun with your music first. Don't let gear, or lack thereof, bring you down.

--David

Hi Stuart.

Recording is a fairly involved universe. Little of it is rocket science and the concepts and principles are easily absorbed. Still, it takes time to gather enough information for it to make sense. Fortunately, you seem to have the inquisitiveness and patience to get there.

If you want to get into recording your acoustic guitar (solo, non-vocals), and you stay with it, you will eventually end up with the folowing gear (most likely):

1. A well treated room.
2. Two small diaphragm condenser mics.
3. Two channels of microphone preamplifiers.
4. Two channels of analog to digital ("AD") converters and two channels of digital to analog ("DA") converters.
5. A computer soundcard (traffic cop) or a USB or firewire "recording interface" (which will combine the trafic cop functions of a soundcard and ## 3 and 4 above and # 6 below).
6. Recording, editing, mixing and mastering software, including plugins.
7. Nearfield reference monitors and a pair of headphones.
8. A workstation, cables, mic stands and other miscellaneous items.

You can spend, say, $1,000 on this stuff up to, say, $25,000, or anywhere inbetween. There are numerous products for each numbered item above in several price ranges. Thousands of products overall. Nearly all are at least good (some suck), many are excellent and some are simply stunning.

Now, that's the gear. Next - How the heck do you use it? Well, it's part art, part craft and part science. You'll become a "recording engineer", the current tag for a recording person. That takes time, experimentation and common sense. Like the guitar, your ear will be your friend.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sdelsolray,

Thanks David and Stephen,

My dinning room is already a mass of software packages and wires, so this should be fun. I'm into digital photography, have dual scanners hooked up and a state of the art printer Epson R2400, photography equipment all over the place, piles of reserach on guitars, photoshop tutorials, music tablature, so what you're telling me is that I need a new house. Also, all six or eight usb ports currently in use. But I do have a firewire connection.


It would be allot easier if someone threw together a package - more or less all inclusive, that was relatively high quality, where it needed to be, mics, mic connections and whatever else, but I guess I'm in dream world.

I will rage through an internal debate and figure out what comes first.

In addition to using the mics for recording, in order to use them to amplify the sound, I presume you still need an amplfier and the recording device doesn't come with built in amp.

Anyway, great comments. I've printed them.

Stuart

quote:

Originally posted by Stuart:
In addition to using the mics for recording, in order to use them to amplify the sound, I presume you still need an amplfier and the recording device doesn't come with built in amp.

The nearfield monitors allow you to hear after you have recorded (playback) and the headphones allow you to hear while your are recording (tracking).

An acoustic guiar amplifier is used with pickup(s) or mic(s) and provide real time amplification (live playing). It can also be used for recording in various ways.