The top is a huge factor, but I went back and read your original post Joe, I will add that rosewood is a hard and dense wood, it tends to efficiently reflect sonic energy, the sound waves bounce right off. Koa, mahogany, maple, these woods are softer, they tend to absorb some of the sonic energy and reflect less sonic energy than rosewood. I am not saying rosewood is superior, that's subjective, maybe rosewood reflects too much sonic energy, depends on your outlook. It's all relative.

That said, rosewood guitars tend to have a broader harmonic spectrum, i.e. more overtones, again - this is neither good or bad, it depends on what you like. The other back and sides woods tend to create guitars that have more of a fundamental timbre. In a mahogany or maple or koa guitar - when you play a G you get a G. With rosewood, when you play a G, you get a G along with a lot of additional harmonic content. Traditionalists often prefer the more fundamental sound of mahogany, for example. Modern style players may prefer rosewood. This is a huge generalization.

But I think a lot of people are conditioned to want to hear all that additional harmonic content that rosewood can impart. And oftentimes, when those same individuals pick up a maple guitar, for example, they are disappointed because their expectations aren't met. They are psychologically waiting to hear rosewood and they hear something other and think it's wrong or dull or whatever.

You may not even realize it, but your ear and mind may be trained to hear rosewood. I know I was like that at one point in my life. But I retrained my ear to hear and expect a different timbre and now maple is my favorite tone wood. (try playing an archtop and see if you think it sounds dull, a lot of people do. but once you learn to play one and understand how an archtop is supposed to sound, you may end up loving it).

So to summarize, it may be a matter of your expectations, and that may be your biggest hurdle, and that's important to remember. Still, the top wood is far more important than the back and sides wood. And bracing, scale length, box size, and setup will also play a factor.

OM compared to SJ is a smaller and shallower box, the sound on the OM will jump out of the box much more quickly, whereas on the SJ the sound waves spend more time in the box, this could also be part of what you are experiencing. There are a multitude of variables that will effect the sound of a guitar. Each guitar is different, we wouldn't have different size guitars with different woods if there wasn't a difference. You have to learn to appreciate and play each individual guitar and understand how to extract the best possible sound from every guitar you play. If you play one guitar with the same attack and technique as another all the while expecting the two guitars to sound the same, you may be disappointed with one of them.

I have little doubt that SJ is challenging you to extract the best possible tone out of it. But you have to put in the effort too.

Robert - I really appreciate the time and thought you have put into your posts. You obviously care a great deal about this topic and have done your homework. One minor correction though - my Koa guitar is a CJ and not an SJ as you state in your last post. Same concepts obviously, just a bit more of them...

I will not simply dismiss this guitar. There is history and some sentimental meaning attached to this Koa guitar that will make me do anything and everything I can to get it to work. It plays beautifully, and I would love to get it to a place where the sound is not a distraction. I think it would make an absolutely phenomenal flat picking guitar, and it is just so beautiful to look at and to hold that I will not give up on it. There is an answer out there. What would you suggest Robert? New strings? A setup by someone comfortable with this guitar?

Thank you! I do really appreciate the help.

Joe

Joe, many of us have gone through what you are experiencing, guitars that, for whatever reason, don't meet our expectations. Fixes are not universal, sometimes you can change things like strings, picks, setup and the magic happens. Other times the only thing to do is sell the guitar and move on. I've done both.

I have a question or two, maybe some suggestions. If I read your earlier posts correctly, you seem to be having "issues" when playing your Koa CJ in fingerstyle mode, correct? You say your OM is louder, projects better, presumably compared to your CJ playing the same style? Given the sizes of the guitars alone this seems strange indeed.

As much as I like the Collings CJ, I personally do not like it for fingerstyle. I felt that all the CJ's I've played much preferred medium gauge strings to get the top moving, I also found a soft or tentative attack with a flatpick did not produce the best tone. Stiff Adi tops will contribute to this as well. I have a sort of soft touch and do not like to use medium strings for fingerstyle, hence my preference for other guitars for this style. So, what gauge strings are you using on the CJ? It might be you will need mediums and will need to work 'em pretty hard to get the tone you want. (I know others will disagree and say the CJ is the best do-it-all guitar in the world. Some folks have no problem playing fingerstyle with mediums. Not for me!)

You might try some "true medium" strings - mediums on the outside, lights on the inner strings. These can be a great compromise. I found the GHS Juber Signature's to be pretty bright, might be a good choice. They are hard to find, but Curt Magnan phosphor bronze strings (NOT 80/20) are very bright and snappy, I like them a lot on certain guitars.

I don't know how you play, but a pretty radical suggestion is to grow your nails longer or get acrylics (assuming you haven't already.) I did this for a while and found I could both really, really work the strings hard and get a very bright tone. I've gone the other way now, very short natural nails, but, just like different flatpicks, changing nail length/composition can really make a difference in your tone.

Finally, if after a reasonable time the guitar doesn't work for you, maybe you just need to move on. If you are unhappy with a guitar and don't look forward to playing it every day, you won't! Get something you love and can't wait to pick up.

Can you post a picture or two of your guitar? I'm very intrigued by your description.

The string advice is interesting and I wonder if it would assist me in playing my c-10 Koa/Sitka. Currently I have D'Addario lights on there, but it feels a bit stiff. I did have the action lowered at McCabe's, but it is still a bit stiff. I should add that I was normally playing silk and steel on my old Yamaha. Not to hijack the thread by any means, but would some of these string suggestions work on the C10?

I dunno. For me, a particular guitar is something I like, or do not. You can make minor adjustments, and tinker til the cows come home, go back out, and come home again, and you won't change the basic nature of the instrument. It is what it is. Sure, playing time will open and warm it up some, but, fundamentally, it's the same box of wood you got when you first opened the case. If you have to try that hard, you're quite possibly barking up the wrong tree, or tree-derived product. And don't try to convince me koa is weak sounding wood. Bad koa, like bad mahogany and bad rosewood, in the hands of a mediocre luthier, will give you a blah guitar. Great guitars have been made from koa for many, many decades. There's one in my living room. True, that won't be the case for much longer. Like brazilian before it, koa is dwindling rapidly in supply, and we won't have it to kick around (or play, or just gawk at) much longer. In sum, a player shouldn't have to sit there saying, "I should really love this guitar, but I don't, so I'll try harder". tom

I agree with you about koa, Tom, it's a great tone wood and results in great guitars. Like I said above, if koa didn't yield great instruments, it would have fallen out of favor a long time ago. But the fact is that koa continues to be popular. And not just because it is cool looking.

However, I do think expectations (psycho-acoustics) play a large role in how we all perceive sound. I agree that if a guitar isn't right for you (or me) it isn't right for you (or me). But I also think one could easily conclude that a guitar isn't right for them, when maybe, in fact, it is right for them. I am of the school that you play to the guitar, which runs counter to the made just exactly for me school.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Robert Forman,

Hey Folks,

I have been playing the CJ against the OM a lot and I am beginning to hear some distinctins in the CJ that my untrained ears may not have been able to catch before. I started flat picking with a heavier pick and i am getting some better sustain and tonal quality. I am also starting to hear the "tightness" of the Adi top, that I will need to learn to "play" that top, as Robert states - playing "to the guitar". I want to see what difference returning to Medium gauge strings will have on the guitar. In fact, if you would be so kind. ;et me know what style strings would be. in your opinion, best for this guitar I would really appreciate a hint along those lines. I have never quite grasped the features of various typpes of acoustic strings. 80/20. phospher bronze, etc.

This guitar, as I said earlier, has a lot of personal significance and would be very difficult to sell. I am also not naive enough or so juvenile that a new guitar the sounds different and fresher will completely turn me against this guitar. I liked the guitar quite a bit until i got the OM and had a comparison to A/B it it was my "amazing Collings that you have got to check out" I am kind of calming down about it and keeping a little more of an open mind.

I will post a couple of pics, and since I just got a very cool new Zoom H4 mini-recorder I'll try to get some MP3's up too.

Guys, especially Tom and Robert, but to everyone who took the time, I am really appreciative. You are a great resource and some classy individuals. Thanks again.

Joe

Joe,

Glad to hear you're giving the CJ a thorough bashing to get the Adi going

I use Phosphor Bronze Mediums from John Pearse on my CJ (Mahogany/Adi). If your fingers are not up for mediums yet you can use bluegrass gauge or true mediums. I've also taken a set of mediums and a set of lights and swapped the highs to make a set of each as well.

I don't find the CJ to be a "subtle" type of guitar but it does like to bark.

I can only offer my experience with Koa on gutiars I've owned. The first was a nice Tacoma parlor with Koa back and sides. I loved this guitar, but I could never really get used to the Koa sound. When I sold it I swore I would never by another Koa guitar. Nothing I would play in my GAS adventures in shops could sway me. One day I found a Gibson AJ Custom with Koa back and sides with the red cedar top. This guitar stole my heart and continues to impress me on a daily basis. However, I will add that I have had some trouble--if you can call it that--finding the perfect strings for this guitar. I really like the Gibson strings on this guitar and I also like GHS. Many of the other mainstream brands, including my favorite John Pearse, just don't seem to match the wood combination.
I really think that Koa works well with certain body styles. Its sound is different than rosewood and closer to mahogany in my book.