Having played Eric's Borges and owning a Blazer & Henkes, I tend to agree with him. The question for each individual simply (in my opinion) involves where the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in.

Elambo, I understand, and appreciate your viewpoint. Mine is just a bit different.

My OM1ACut Varnish gets played back to back with my McAlister OM28 Vintage Series. Roy's a solo builder, and in the elite class in my book, and his OM is a frickin great guitar. I've only played one Borges, the L Model at Gryphon, but I've played several guitars built by Bruce Sexauer, and others in the solo builder elite circle. Many have been outstanding, incredible guitars. But when it comes down to producing the magic that I use as the gold standard for this type of evaluation, my Collings OM1ACut Varnish ranks right up there with the others I mentioned, and above a good number of them, again speaking only from my own, and obviously subjective perspective. I just don't accept that you have to be a solo builder to produce the magic. But hey, its all good. No worries.

For a bit of drool-inducing Borgesality ...

http://www.blue-g.com/stk/detail.cgi?pid=01710

You're welcome.

That is jaw dropping. Bet it's a monster.
Tom

Tom - I wish your experience was mine! I've owned 6 different Collings over the years, different styles, different woods, different playing styles. I still own 1, an O1A that I use for travel and couch playing, but the others are gone. For me, (stress that, for me!) I've found that while Colling are good guitars, handbuilts have captured the magic.

I've been beyond fortunate to have played literally hundreds of handbuilts from both the acknowledged greats and the relatively unknown. I'd say all of them have been good, many of them great and more than several in the magical realm. My personal favorites have come from Kim Walker, Ed Claxton, John Slobod, Kent Hamblin and Blazer & Henkes. There are more (Mitch Corbin, Marty Lanham, David Flammang, Mike Baranick, Kathy Wingart, Mario Proulx and on into the future!)

Interestingly, for the most part these great guitars are competitively priced relative to the higher end Collings, just very hard to play and compare. The scarcity and "leap of faith" buying process keeps them out of the hands of most. Nevertheless, I agree with Eric's view and think many of the handbuilts are in a slightly higher place than the small factory guitars. I also fully agree with Mike that with diminishing returns being what they are, beauty is most certainly in the hands of the holder.

FreeBlues, well said. Thinking further on this, I must concede I haven't come close to playing the variety of elite solo builders that you have, so my opinion is admittedly limited. Perhaps if I had played a Walker, a Ryan, a Sobell, a B&H, or a number of the others you have mentioned, my opinion would be different. So once again, the Collings Forum educates, and I'll revise my opinion to say what you, and Elambo and Mike have said is certainly possible, I just haven't experienced it...yet Guess I'll have to play that Schoenberg Soloist that John Slobod is currently building. Can't afford it mind you (its Braz with a price tag North of 10k), but I look forward with interest to playing it and others in the future.

It's one of the many things I like so much about this Forum. I actually learn something from the talent pool here. Much appreciated.

This whole page has been so well written, enlightening and humbling. It's true for me as well, that my best musical experiences have been with Collings and that the other names are just not available to me. I fully see what you guys are saying, but until I can play those instruments for myself, I still believe that a Collings Adi/Braz varnish can hang with those big boys.

Congratulations Elambo. I have no doubt that your Borges is a stunner and has satisfied your experienced and educated taste for something besides a Collings. I too am always on the lookout for something extraordinary, irrespective of maker. I haven't played a Borges or a Walker, and going by the lavish endorsements, I'd love to, but I think I've covered pretty much all those others mentioned in this thread. Fabulous things they are too. Besides my Collings, I now count a Goodall Adi/Mah GC and A Lowden cedar/EIR for DADGAD. Alberico next, perhaps.

OK,I must admit I felt a twinge of consternation at your premise that you wanted to move on to "the next level" from Collings. If there is one, I stand corrected. Please allow me to explain. I consider myself moderately knowledgeable about arts and crafts in general and guitars in particular. Over the last 30 odd years I've rebuilt several Italian V-12s, built most of the furniture in my home, repaired lots of guitars, and continue to spend time in the machine shop for fun (not profit). I say this to make clear that I do appreciate fine craftsmanship, detail, an aesthetic bent, and dedication to excellence. However,it still strikes me as a pleasant fiction why some people consider a bespoke, individual craftsman to automatically be superior to the "small factory" such as Collings. Sure, the individual spends more time with the instrument, but is this really better? If you appreciate the idiosyncrasies and the anomalies of the human hand (vs CNC for example) then you have a point. Some people like to see the burn marks on the insides, left by an old heated bender. Or the odd saw mark. Perhaps there is something to be said for the Yankee Workshop mentality. But before anyone claims that the individual lovingly coaxes more out of the wood let me say that there are limits. The combined knowledge of the pantheon of guitar gods mentioned cannot a silk purse out of a sow's ear make. And lets be honest....individual luthiers can only have so much wood inventory on hand. And it ain't always the best. So does every one of their guitars come out bursting with fabulosity? No. I've played many bland guitars from much-touted shops. Olson-schmolson. Ryan? I'd rather be dyin. Yeah, I've played a mind-blowing Olson. It was one decent one of perhaps 15 I've tried. Are all Collings great? Heck, no. But show me a better volute. Show me cleaner lines. Show me a better finish. Show me consistently better wood and I'll show you aerial pigs. Notice I didn't mention that catchall word: sound. Because some particular Olson, Franklin, whatever, will surely trump a random-sampled Collings. Serendipity is not the rule. To delimit Collings to a lesser echelon is to deny them the respect and stature that we fortunates have come to take for granted.

A few days ago I finally picked up a custom OM I had ordered from Collings four years ago. The utter beauty and sound of this thing is so transcendental that I wonder how someone can do better. Perhaps someone has. If so, I salute that maker and would love to know his name.

Kind regards.

Collingscowboy, I love your post! And not simply because you've coined a word that, alone, would rate endorsement: "Fabulosity".

I learn alot from many of the fine folk who post on this Forum. It's the Forum I come back to time and again; the best hands down (absolutely no qualifications in that statement).

Now, my thanks as well to Rick-Slo for those video posts with Steve preaching the Collings gospel. I ask you, can any solo luthier bring more dedication than Bill gets out of this "small factory"? My eyes (and ears) have been opened a bit wider to the musical joy that the elite solo luthiers can produce (remember, there's a McAlister with a prominent place in my herd). And I'm going to look to play more of those hard to find treasures in the future. But Bill's best? It's magic to me, plain and simple.

Collingscowboy ...

Very well said. While I think, along with Eric, that the most talented individual builders may have that certain "it", I completely agree with you that it STILL depends on each individual guitar. I've played a number of Ryans, for example, and never found one I liked more than a comparable Goodall. But the one Blazer I've played (and own) is a thing unto its own, as is Eric's Borges (which I've also played). Could be that these two just happen to be tail-of-the-distribution events for these builders as well.

All that being said, while I am cautiously eyeing a Borges for myself I should also note that I have 4-5 Collings to go along with my Blazer and some vintage instruments. And the Collings guitars that have survived the culls in my music room are instruments that I would put up against any I've ever seen ... regardless of whose name is on the label.

It's all good. And we're all lucky to have such choices at our disposal.

Peace,

quote:

Originally posted by collingscowboy:
Sure, the individual spends more time with the instrument, but is this really better?

In the right hands, definitely YES. But merely being a one-man racket doesn't automatically make your guitars better. Definitely not. I think my earlier statement was misunderstood because I never meant to suggest that small shops are better by default. Certainly not. They merely have opportunities to make improvements on a micro scale that factories don't have. So it comes down to the specific luthier and their ability to identify areas of improvement and capitalize on them.

If we could consider these two building processes as absolutes - categorical - then we'd have two types of guitars. Two sounds. Two feels. No more. But we all know that there are hundreds, and it's because of those idiosyncratic differences that each guitar is different, some just slightly. Making those unique dissimilarities work to your advantage is what matters. From my experience, Julius Borges is working all the angles effectively. I believe the wisdom of Bill Collings is on the same level, but his process doesn't (necessarily) allow for all the important customizations.

This is getting kind of circular. The old "agree to disagree" is lurking close by.

quote:

Originally posted by mwilkins:
...I am cautiously eyeing a Borges for myself...

From our mutual friend perhaps? OM-28?