What's more important, the wood or the maker? I'd say the maker. A gifted luthier can find an excellent piece of wood under any circumstance and use it as he sees fit. So many more things come into play when building a guitar than merely the wood. Also, did these guitars sound the same when they were new as they do now? A 70 year-old Collings will probably blow a similarly aged Martin/Gibson out of the water - especially when it comes to such things as setup, intonation, etc. True, a great vintage piece will have mojo a new one won't, but we're not necessarily talking "better" or "worse", they're just different.

Finding a great sounding vintage guitar now is a crapshoot, but finding a great contemporary guitar is quite easy w/ makers like Collings, Santa Cruz, etc. My favorite vintage guitar is the Gibson L-00. But 9 out of 10 sound anything but etheral - and that includes the Nick Lucas models!

I'll never forget what the late, great Los Angeles repairman, Larry Brown told me about my Collings C10 when I took it to him to have it setup. In comparison to the first "Golden Era" of guitars and the legends that played them he told me: "This guitar [Collings] is better than any guitar they could've had." But then again, perhaps my view would be different if my largest profits came from selling vintage, not new, instruments.

They don't make records like surrealistic pillow anymore because the golden age of hallucinagens was 1965-1969.

flatpickr wrote:

quote:

They don't make records like surrealistic pillow anymore because the golden age of hallucinagens was 1965-1969.

Flatpickr: I'm not so sure -- today may indeed be the real Golden Age of mind-altering drugs -- thanks to the multi-national giants like Merck, Pfizer, Genentech, etc., etc. and a virtual army of prescription-filling psychiatrists, the 60s look downright tame -- benzodiazepines, barbiturates, glutethimide, chloral hydrate, meprobamate -- all legal, all pure and all affordable. Today is truly the Golden Age.

They don't make records like they used to cause the world has changed. We've gotten too big for our britches. If there is a golden age for acoustic guitars,1934-38,and electrics,50-68?,then there must be one for music as well. I'd say 1926(?) to 1974. Post 74 is really boring to me in music,acoustic and electric guitars,and a lot of other stuff. Computers,news media/TV,and technology have gutted the town square and most people have retreated into their personal PC,Ipod,MP3space. I mean what are we all doing here? We're replicating the old town square without physical contact. We've turned a multi-dimensional experience into a flatter ...though quicker,wider...one.

Excuse me, I just woke up and can't find my box of Morning Thunder.

The old guitars are great if you find a good one. The new guitars are great if you find a good one. On your mark,get set,go....find some.

My 2 cents for George...I got rid of all my vintage stuff cause I want instruments I can play and not have to worry about fixing all the time or getting ripped off or damaged or being over-insured,or have to build a shrine or vault to house them in, that sound just as good if not better than the Golden Era stuff. I'm thru playing the vintage game when old Kays,Harmonys,Silvertones,etc. are in the $500-1K range and Strats and Teles over 10K...forget about it! The new stuff is too good. I've owned and compared the Golden Era to the new Golden Era.Let the vintage market be and enjoy the new GE. Keep checking those flea markets,yard sales and pawn shops....there are still bargains to be had in vintage instruments but,don't pay stupid money for vintage junk or somebody's inflated estimation of value.

You know whats funny, younger players love new Martins and Taylors etc.as their pride of super instruments.Most probably because of availability and price as much as anything else.
Im sure most of us have been through a collection of sounds until we reached our subjective best makers so to speak.

I live in Florida where there is a severe shortage of quality boutique stores more your large Guitar Centers type of place and I sometimes go in and walk around the acoustic room where there are maybe 100 guitars and go through them in 15mins 1 or 2 licks and next.
Most just dont have it, occasionaly a few will speak.

Now when I visit a collection of smaller builders store I want to spend all day on a few pieces, what does that tell us about it all.
If Martin etc are making guitars as good as they used to then will time make them great if thats the case a guitar like a Collings is going to be amazing with that equation of time.

Its true some of the better pieces come from the larger factories when they get good alchemy going but vintage guitars have been played in.
As far as ergonomics these smaller builders are creating dreams for us today, quite amazing really how smooth they handle themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by cowboycamper:

The old guitars are great if you find a good one. The new guitars are great if you find a good one.

My thoughts exactly. Everything comes down to that particular guitar (in your particular hands).

And, sorry, I have to move your great music era ahead to 1977 include:

1975:
Blood On The Tracks - Bob Dylan
Physical Graffiti - Led Zeppelin
Born To Run - Bruce Springsteen
Fleetwood Mac -- Fleetwood Mac
Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd

1976: (okay - this was a bad year)
Honorable mentions:
Ramones - Ramones
Mothership Connection - Parliment
Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers
Rocks - Aerosmith
Song in the Key of Life -- Stevie Wonder
Warren Zevon - Warren Zevon

1977:
The Clash - The Clash
Exodus - Bob Marley & The Wailers
My Aim Is True - Elvis Costello
Rumours - Fleetwood Mac
Talking Heads: 77 - Talking Heads
Never Mind The Bollocks Here's The Sex Pistols - The Sex Pistols
Rocket To Russia - Ramones

And, man, how can we live without London Calling in 1979, or Big Star's Third (Sister Lovers), or...

The Luthier is definetly the most important aspect of building a great guitar. Taylor built a guitar in the mid 90's from a pallete they grabbed out of a garbage dumpster, i don't think they even removed the nails from it and it sounded pretty good.
Old growth wood is out there. Europe has spruce trees that are hundreds of years old and there are still buildings in Brazil that are made of old Brazilian wood, that are ready to come down every day.
I have played some of the older vitage Martins and Gibsons, and maybe i did not play the right one, but i was not very impressed. I would prefer one of the newer guitars that are being made by some some of todays top Luthiers.
When i was a young man i drove some great cars 1965 Mustang/ 1967 GTO/ 1969 Camaro Z/28 All great cars. Drive them today with as original equipment as possible, and you better drive them real slow. Today those same cars are being copied, but they are 10 times better. Faster, more economical, better suspensions, you name it.
Yes, I prefer the new great guitars.

Guitarhak

I love the 70's, very few people write with melody these days its more rhythm induced from beats etc. Some of the older stuff had funky time and pitch control but man what great melody lines.

Funny story I used to go round a friend of mines house and play on his beat up old strat sometimes, it was okay.
Then his wife told me that they went to insure home contents and company said strat needed seperate policy. When she inquired why she was told it was one of the first 10 made and value was high.
Now this guy had bought it when he was 18 for $150 in a pawn shop and had no idea.
Next time I played it man it was Cool with a capital C. My mind was blowing in its history.

By the way Papi, I used to have an old MG that broke down every time I took it out, new owner gutted it and replaced engine electronics etc, he's happy cause it works. (tks also for pickguard info, its on its way)


Ive played cheap guitars that sound good because they have aged and been played so time really does its part.

Now if we can only be patient enough and give our guitars a chance. A few top luthiers told me they tell people wait at least 1 year before deciding to sell.

Very interesting dialogue and subject...especially with the old Gibson twist which I find most interesting. I have to say I lean towards flatpickr's sentiments on this one.

I do think many of the Collings made today and in years past will stand up extremely well over a long period of time. I think that's how Bill builds them.

But a Collings is a Collings is a Collings. Tone wise Collings are not built to sound like any other guitars. It seems that their philosophy is to take the best of the past and build on it and achieve a desired and consistent overall tone and structural integrity. There’s obviously variances in tone and sound between different body shapes and wood combinations within the Collings line, but there is always the Collings signature tone.

Take the CJ….a great guitar period! But other than the body shape and sometimes the cosmetics there are few similarities to the vintage Gibson’s. I think it's fair to say that most Collings will sound better (and hold up far better) than “most” Gibson’s of any vintage... look inside any old Gibson...even the great ones...it is indeed a crap shoot...

BUT...Take a great old J-35, J-45 or the like...and you get a certain sound that some people call the vintage Gibson sound. To me, I’d describe it as a big, dry, thumpy and "hollow-ish" tone with an unmistakable sweetness and warmth...Descriptions may vary but no Collings will ever match that sound or imho even come close. That's not what they're going for in the CJ (of any scale length)...again, the CJ is a great guitar and will probably sound more amazing after 30 or 40 years of playing, but it’s its own thing…Tone wise and structurally…unmistakably, a Collings. It may sound more like an old Gibson as compared to other Collings models, but it will never sound like an old Gibson. I've played and owned too many CJ's in different flavors and played several great old Gibson’s…an apples to oranges comparison.

If you're looking for a great new guitar that has a tone that's designed to be reminiscent of the old Gibson's there are some guys out there doing great work. One in particular is Kevin Kopp in Montana.

Just some thoughts.

d

True

You know in recordings with other instruments everything changes anyway. And sometimes an older type tone works great.

Somewhat off topic but it got brought up, I think you have to go a little further than 1974....JD CRowe and the New South with Tony, Skaggs, Jerry Douglas, Hot Rize, Allman Bros with Warren Haynes and Derek Trucks, Heck Jormas last few albums were good to, Sam Bush....Markology, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Danny Gatton.....

Hey, let's go to '92 and add Little Village (a band consisting of none other than Ry Cooder, John Hiatt, Jim Keltner and Nick Lowe; why this album/CD hasn't gotten more recognition I'll never figure out). And let's face it, we're talking general trends here. There's great music at all times, but much more of it in certain periods.